Jon Meacham

In the aftermath of the Democratic Party's successful showing in last week's midterm elections, John Heilemann welcomes Pulitzer Prize-winning historian Jon Meacham, author of the recent presidential biography, And Then There Was Light: Abraham Lincoln and the American Struggle. Heilemann and Meacham, a friend of President Joe Biden, discuss Biden's buoyant mood after the midterms and how he'll determine whether he'll run again in 2024; Meacham's belief that Americans voted to support Democrats over Republicans in key swing states because they dislike having rights taken from them; that the ability of Democrats to put democracy on the ballot was a key determinant in their favor; how Josh Shapiro, Pennsylvania's next governor, has become an an ascendant political star; and why presidents and vice presidents never have close relationships. They also talk about Ron DeSantis' recent deeply narcissistic political ad and why his anti-woke message may not play well on the national scene if he tries to be the Republican's presidential nominee in two years; debate Donald Trump's chances of becoming president again; and weigh the potential for election chaos if Republicans don't support the rational rule of law in 2024.